Confronting Ageism - Ashton Applewhite's Manifesto

In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, co-hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome Ashton Applewhite, author of 'This Chair Rocks: A Manifesto Against Ageism.' Ashton explores the social and personal implications of ageism, discussing its roots, its intersection with other forms of prejudice, and practical steps to dismantle it. Highlights include the launch of the 'Younger and Olders Dismantling Ageism' (YODA) initiative, the myth of intergenerational conflict, and the broader cultural narratives that shape our perspectives on aging. Join us for a deep dive into building an inclusive society that honors all ages.

00:00 Introduction to Aging and Ageism
00:22 Meet Ashton Applewhite
01:32 Understanding Ageism
03:54 The Yoda Initiative
07:35 Microaggressions and Ageism
11:06 Age and Capacity
15:49 Intersectionality and Ageism
17:56 Creating an Age-Friendly World
22:38 Ashton Applewhite's Legacy and Old School Hub
25:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

Ashton Applewhite: 0:30

A really big overarching problem is the dominant narrative around aging well, is that to age well really means to not age. To work really hard to look, especially for women, and move, especially for men, as you did when you were young. That is not possible. It's expensive. It sets us up to compete. It sets us up to fail.

David Lowry: 0:52

That was Ashton Applewhite, our guest on today's podcast. Welcome everybody to Peaceful Life Radio, where we aim to help you find peace, wisdom, and grace in the second half of life. I'm David Lowry, your co-host, along with my good buddy, Don Drew. Don, how are you today?

Don Drew: 1:08

I'm doing great, David.

David Lowry: 1:09

We have a really special guest and Don, I want you to introduce her and get started in our program.

Don Drew: 1:15

Today we have Ashton Applewhite, a writer and activist based in Brooklyn, New York. An internationally recognized expert on ageism, Ashton is the author of This Chair Rocks, A Manifesto Against Ageism. Ashton is the co-founder of the Old School Hub, which I imagine we'll talk a little bit about today. She speaks widely at venues that have included the United Nations and the TED Main Stage, and is at the forefront of the emerging movement to raise awareness of ageism and make age a criterion for diversity. In 2022, the United Nations named Ashton one of the healthy aging leaders transforming the world to be a better place in which to grow older. Ashton Applewhite, welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.

Ashton Applewhite: 1:59

Thanks for having me.

David Lowry: 2:00

We're so glad you're with us today Ashton. I want to ask a question you know all about, Where ageism comes from and what it does? Tell us about that.

Ashton Applewhite: 2:10

I'll start with where ageism comes from and it's all over the place. So, where does any prejudice come from? You could say it comes, and I'm not an anthropologist or a paleontologist, but it comes from the fact that we are tribal creatures and tend to associate with people who are like us. Age shouldn't set us apart since it's an experience that everyone does have. And certainly, in the olden days, if the barbarians were at the gates and you had to run for it, children with very short legs and older people who can't move so fast are at a disadvantage, and that is biology. But what has happened in the last a 100, 150 years is there is a lot more old age than there used to be, which is of course, a fantastic accomplishment and a triumph of public health. But, I'm gonna stick to answering it about North America because I'm on thicker ice there. Urbanization happened and also the industrial revolution. People started moving out of countrysides and into the city. Global capitalization happened. The march of Global Capital, which meant that we started valuing people more and more according to how much paid work they did. We don't tend to value unpaid work. We don't tend to value caregiving and all those important things that of course are incredibly valuable, but don't come with a paycheck. And in the 20th century, thanks to more people surviving childhood and better public health, we started having more old people. Because of these forces, aging came to be conceived of a problem to be solved. And that's when retirement communities came into being, which of course are wonderful for a lot of older people. That's when the nursing home came into being, which are less wonderful for a lot of older people. We started to become a much more age segregated society. And anytime you have segregation, if you don't have contact with people who are different from you, different religion, different skin color, different anything, it's easier for stereotypes to take hold. So, all those things led to an increase in ageism, which is stereotyping and prejudice on the basis of age in the 20th century and into the 21st around the world.

Don Drew: 4:23

One of your new ideas is to do something called Yoda, to create an organization you called Yoda, which is younger and older, dismantling ageism. I think the idea. Is to bring people together. Is that true?

Ashton Applewhite: 4:38

That is a complicated idea. I am delighted that you brought it up because I'm thinking about it nonstop. I'm in the business haha, of trying to raise awareness of ageism around the world and helping more people see what it is and how we can dismantle it. And one thing I realized, not that long ago, was most of the people in the age equity movement look like me. They're older. A lot of them are white. A lot of them are women. Also, a lot of us are privileged because it takes extra time to be able to afford to become an activist. I now make a living at it, but that's a rarity, believe me. And I thought, do all ages really have a voice? Is this movement going outlive me? Are we addressing ageism the way it affects all ages because it does, right? We're being ageist when we make any assumption on the basis of age. Older people definitely bear the brunt because it's a very age obsessed society. But anytime you write off a younger person as ignorant or whatever name an attribute, you are also being ageist. So, I'm happy to say that lots and lots of people, and I'm not one of'em, I spend most of my time alone banging my head against a keyboard. But lots of organizations are working to bring older and younger people together to talk to each other, to work together, to advance our shared interests, et cetera. And the Yoda idea for Younger and Olders, Dismantling Ageism has nothing to do with Yoda. Please don't sue me, Universal Pictures. Is that who owns it? Is the idea that some of these conversations need to be about power? Where do we have power because of our age? Where do we not have power because of our age? How is that different for older and younger people? How do we use it against each other, which we do every time we fall for the myth that the interests of young people and old people are inherently opposed. There's no evidence for that whatsoever. But there are real reasons to present other generations economic demographic good fortune. My kids didn't grow up into 60 years of economic prosperity. It's easier for we elders to forget how hard it is to be young, and to resent young peoples. That doesn't get us anywhere. That is what all prejudice does. It divides us so that we squabble amongst each other instead of figuring out what our common goals are and uniting across those barriers. So, Yoda is the proposal that some of those conversations that lots of people, much more skilled than I am, about facilitating these conversations, because they're tricky that some of those conversations be explicitly about power.

David Lowry: 7:22

Yoda is such a beautiful idea. I also think of Yoda as a very wise being. So, good luck with all of that.

Ashton Applewhite: 7:30

We like that. And clearly Yoda is old, but also I think the character has a youthful playfulness. So, I want the choice to read as sort of age neutral, if you will.

David Lowry: 7:42

Ageism is pernicious and one of the things I've discovered in the past several years it's real. I'm one of those old white guys people talk about. And one of the things that's taking me aback is people saying, So, when are you going to retire? And I don't think they mean anything by it really. But I find it irritating. Can you talk about some of the ways it's wrapped into our society and people accept it without thinking about it?

Ashton Applewhite: 8:10

These comments about age are called microaggressions. They don't make you feel good. Sometimes people say things with the best of intent. You look great for your age. or calling me a young lady. It's meant as a compliment. But all it really does is draw the attention to the fact that I'm not a young lady, right? And even though they might have meant it as a compliment, and intention matters, but it doesn't let you off the hook. And I think you are totally justified in, and feeling like, oh, why are they saying that? And I have a handy suggestion, a sort of all purpose rejoinder to when you hear an ageist or sexist or racist comment.

David Lowry: 8:53

I'm ready to hear it.

Ashton Applewhite: 8:55

Well, my daughter, she says, tell me more. She does it so gently. But it's hard. Sometimes you can make you mad or make you feel offended. And when we put people on the defense. We don't get anywhere because they think, oh, that person's a jerk. But just say, what do you mean by that?

David Lowry: 9:09

Great comment.

Ashton Applewhite: 9:10

Make them think about what they did mean by it. This is not a good story, but I was in a shop a couple years ago. It was summer, it was hot, and I told her I was going to a dance party and I needed a shirt. And she said, with sleeves, I assume? I snarl, you kidding? Its 108 outside? Not a mature, helpful response. But why would you think that? It's hot out.

Don Drew: 9:34

Someone asked me recently, how old do you feel? And I think that's a really loaded question as well, because if you were to say, well, I feel younger than I am, then that's a good thing. If you say you feel older that day or whatever, meaning you're tired or whatever, that's a bad thing. There's a lot of problematic language out there.

David Lowry: 9:50

And they also say why aren't you acting your own age? Or something like that. Like, we've got an assignment to do.

Ashton Applewhite: 9:56

You just did a lot of my work for me on that one as far as acting your age. Except for children, there's no such thing as age appropriate. The longer we live, the more different from one another we become because we age at different rates socially, cognitively, physically. I might be in a wheelchair, but be the sharpest brain in the room till 105, or so on. You can't ever tell so that there's no such thing as acting your age, because you're always gonna be able or unable to do something that someone else your same age can or cannot do, right? There's all this variety. But as far as what age do you feel you hit on the way we use old and young as placeholders. As you just said, I feel old. Well, that usually means something negative, right? I feel tired, I feel incompetent, I feel useless. We can feel all those things. I felt worse at 13 than I ever have since. The way to think about the way these ideas take up residence in our heads, and they do in all our heads, is how you think about how you, or use the words old and young. I don't know a good answer to that one. What did you say?

Don Drew: 11:07

I probably gave a number that I felt at the time. I don't remember exactly. But I do remember thinking, Okay, I'm making a decision between do I feel good today, which means I'm gonna pick a lower number, or do I feel bad or sore? I'm recovering from shoulder surgery a few months ago, So, I have some good days. I have bad days. Some days that arm feels like it's 90, meaning it feels like it's gonna fall off and die. And others it feels like like I did when I was 30, really strong. Somewhere in that range. And So, that's where my mind goes immediately. But also one of the questions I wanted to ask you about really is about functionality. We talk about functionality as being something that is binary. Either we feel functional or we feel dysfunctional. And just because one part of us is not operating really well, we treat the whole person as not doing well. This leads to another question. I've heard you talk about the difference between age and capacity, and I think it's related to what we're talking about here, age and capacity. When you talk about that, what do you mean?

Ashton Applewhite: 12:02

Well, a lot of what we think is ageism, which is stigma, prejudice, discrimination around age is actually ableism. Probably the thing most of us fear the most about getting older is the loss of function. In particular, I think cognitive function. But it depends. If you're a pitcher, you better hope that shoulder keeps working. Speaking of how well your shoulder works. Your shoulder works a lot better than a professional pitcher once he injures it. It doesn't ever have to do with age. It has to do with capacity. That said, physical capacity diminishes with age. That is a fact. Cognitive decline is not inevitable. About 20% of the population escapes it entirely. We all know some of those 90 year olds that are just as quick to get their words and their thoughts as they were at 19. Most of us lose some processing capacity. The ability to remember the name of the movie you saw with what's her name. But I'm with young people all the time and they can't remember the name of the damn movie either. A really big overarching problem here is the dominant narrative around aging, well, air quotes there, is that to age well really means to not age. To work really hard. To look, especially for women and move, especially for men, as you did when you were young. That is not possible. It's expensive. It sets us up to compete. It sets us up to fail. It's important of course to stay as healthy as you can. Moving wherever you can is really important. I was talking to my sister-in-law who just broke her wrist and is waiting for surgery and she said she's been told to always, for example, put your clothes on, standing up. Like you can lean against the wall, but practice your balance. I've heard you don't wanna get down on the floor. These things get harder as we get older. I'm creakier. My balance is terrible. But keep practicing. It is important to push back. But it is corrosive and ableist to think that we are only doing well if we stop the clock. It's not stoppable. And you know what? I'm never gonna be graceful. I wasn't graceful at 21. I'm never gonna be an athlete. I'm good at other things. to accept the loss of capacity when it's inevitable and to push back where we can, but not to let it eat away at our sense of ourselves and our value and our place in the world, which is hard.

David Lowry: 14:26

I think of my dear mother when she was around 88. She said, David, inside I feel like I did when I was 16. Mother had this sense of aliveness and alertness and wellness and capacity in her mind. She would've admitted that, I don't move as fast as I did, and I've suffered some things, but I loved her outlook on life. Not willing to give into you've gotta feel a certain way, think a certain way, behave a certain way, accept a certain set of values. You have a starter question in one of your discussion groups,, and I love this question. What does age, pride mean to you?

Ashton Applewhite: 15:05

First of all, we each need to feel whatever the heck we feel, right? I will complicate things immediately as I tend to do by saying it annoys me sometimes I'll be somewhere and some person will stand up and say, I'm a million years old, and everyone claps. I don't. think you get a pedestal just because you're old. I want a world where, in that sense, age is neutral, right? That age doesn't make you a more valuable person or a less valuable person. I coined that term age pride, which I use less often now as an antidote to the shame this culture wants you to feel. A tremendous shame for women. I go to the place where, there's so much men experience it too, but so much judgment. Are you thin enough? Are you pretty enough? Are you active enough? And shame on you if you are not. Right, because it's your fault. And it's a personal failing and that shame is so corrosive and so destructive. We're the age we are. I'm not proud of being 72 particularly, but I'm certainly not embarrassed about it. I'll admit, happy to tell anyone about it. I would like the saying of it to be out there just like where I live or what color my dog is, but not to have people attach a value to it.

Don Drew: 16:19

I'd love to hear you talk a bit about intersectionality. Kimberly Crenshaw crafted that concept a few years ago to describe how different aspects of identity overlap and shape our prospects. How do you see intersectionality and interplay with ageism?

Ashton Applewhite: 16:34

Thank you for that question, and I'm glad you're still talking about this stuff because it's really important. And thank you for naming Kimberly Crenshaw, to whom we owe this important idea. Intersectionality, can sound a bit jargony. Here's what she said. She said age and gender and race are all factors, things, that we use to socially locate people. I really like that, right? Every person we know we know because of all these different aspects of their identity. The important component about what Crenshaw did, she was a lawyer and she had a woman who came to her and she said, I'm being discriminated against at work and it's because I'm black and it's because I'm a woman. The law does not like complications like that. They wanna go after one thing. They like to put a single thing in a single box. And this woman said, that does not reflect my experience. Kimberly Crenshaw went the distance and helped people to see each of us is the product of a certain set of advantages and disadvantages. And you now have the terrible misfortune of being white men, which I appreciate you bringing up. I am sure it is not to say that you haven't overcome all sorts of challenges. It is saying that in general, being white, and being male are things that have not made your life harder. Sexism is real. Misogyny is real. And being African American, racism is very real. So, the idea of intersectionality is to look at all the aspects of identity, difficulties, and advantages that each of us bring. Ideally, we have all sorts of people at the table because when you have diversity, you have more experience and more richness, and you're in a position to learn more from people who are different from you.

David Lowry: 18:26

If I gave you a magic wand and you could make this an age-friendly world, what would that look like to you?

Ashton Applewhite: 18:33

The answer is unique to each of us, right? I live in New York. So, my first thought would be oh, there'd be escalators up and down all the subway stairs because that's my gym. But my second thought is there better not be escalators because that's my gym. For someone who is a wheelchair user? They want escalators and they absolutely should have escalators. There is now an elevator at the subway stop closest to me, which is wonderful. An age-friendly world for a working parent is a world with affordable childcare so that person can afford to pursue job opportunities. It's different for each of us. We also wanna support younger people. The period of life where most people are the most unhappy is not old age. It's midlife because that's when we have maximum a child rearing responsibilities. You're supposed to be saving for retirement. You're supposed to be getting that career in gear. You're supposed to be looking after your mom and your neighbors. And also it's the time of life where you go, oh, I'm probably not gonna be, become an astronaut or a ballerina, right? It's a real period of reckoning. Those things are hard. I want a world that is better to grow old in. But I also want a world in which it's better to be middle aged and better to be a kid. I think young people should be able to vote earlier. So, the answer is completely about where each person is in their life and where they are, materially and what they wanna do and what the barriers are between them and accomplishing it.

David Lowry: 19:55

Ashton, you are such a delightful person, and you caught me off guard a little bit and let me explain what I mean here. When Don and I were talking about the second half of life I thought ageism was mostly how are we treating these older folks? I love the fact that you're holding all of us in the second half of life just as accountable for how we treat people younger than us, as well as people our own age and above. You are holding us just as responsible because that's ageism too, isn't it? And thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Ashton Applewhite: 20:27

Thank you for being so open-minded and for not getting defensive about it. Older people do experience more ageism, and I think it's important to acknowledge that. And older people do have more experience, right? But that doesn't make us more valuable as human beings, and we still need to collaborate across age gaps. You know there's this myth of intergenerational conflict, that older people are hoarding everything and don't care about the world we leave behind. And that young people would throw us to the wolves in order to get our houses and our Tupperware. And there is no evidence that younger people don't care about older people. And the idea that I don't care about the world I leave behind, I can feel myself flushing with anger at that idea. So, when I talk about age equity, I'm really talking about equity across the lifespan. And I'm so glad because it's a super powerful idea. We should care about people no matter how old they are. And injustice is injustice.

Don Drew: 21:25

That raises a question in my mind because I've heard you in your Ted Talk discuss happiness. Where highest levels of happiness are found in the young and the old and lower in the midlife. That's lower levels of happiness and so forth, and you challenge us to rethink that. But the big question for me anyway, is why are we so consistent in our cultural belief that happiness is the sole domain of the young?

Ashton Applewhite: 21:46

I'm happy that I get to bring up capitalism. No one makes money off satisfaction. And of course this is not just about 40-year-old people buying personal trainers or skin cream. I read that they are marketing skincare products to kids in pretend crayon boxes, right? It's bad. But if natural transitions are pathologized, like wrinkles is an easy example. If that's seen as a terrible problem that we need to try and stop or cure, then people make money off it. And also it divides us. And that is how prejudice works. Prejudice operates to divide us so we don't join forces and change the status quo. And so we keep supporting the multi-billion dollar cosmetics industry. PS. No judgment, especially to women there are so many voices out there telling us what we should and shouldn't do, and I am not one of them. Aging is complicated and we each need to navigate our own path in our own way.

David Lowry: 22:46

I'm with you on that. We have to allow people to be authentic and enjoy the journey as much as we possibly can. I love that you're challenging us to be inclusive of all ages as we do this. Life is so much fun when we do it together, as opposed to dividing and conquering ourselves and putting ourselves into camps, into all of that. I have a question about your book This Chair Rocks: The Manifesto Against Ageism. I'm wondering, what legacy do you hope to leave behind when you think about this book and the work that you're doing? Tell us more about that.

Ashton Applewhite: 23:23

Oh geez. I have to say when I got that honor from the United Nations that I was one of 50 leaders around the world making it a better place to grow old, I'm like, I never set out to do anything. I've never had a plan. I don't like writing. I like thinking. I wrote one book before this one and I was like, thank God I never have to do that again. I'm an introvert. But I do these things, and of course they give me pleasure, because I think what I'm saying is really important. I think dreading our futures is really corrosive and terrible for us individually and collectively. Again, there are things to be afraid of. There are real genuine issues here. But we are way more afraid then the evidence says we should be. And that fear is bad for us physically, socially, cognitively, the works, right? So, it feels important to spread the word and I know that I do that via my books and my public speaking, and that feels really great.

Don Drew: 24:21

Can you talk about the Old School Hub? I find that really fascinating.

Ashton Applewhite: 24:26

Thanks. I spend most of my time sitting alone sweating at my computer. But gosh, about 10 years ago, I thought, the movement to end ageism is new. And wouldn't it be great if you could find all the great resources in one place? So, I found two fantastic colleagues and we created what was then called the Old School Clearinghouse.'Because all it was, was a resource bank. Then last fall we rebranded as the Old School Hub because we wanna raise awareness of ageism, we want to educate people about how it works and how to dismantle it. And we wanna connect people who are doing this work. The website is oldschool dot info. You can find hundreds of resources all free, except the books, plus all sorts of other cool stuff. And we host a weekly Zoom that's open to anyone called Office Hours. You can find it, go to the events hub, or they're easy to find. We had occasional in-person gatherings and we have a working group, which we call The Hubsters, to help support projects that people submit to the hubs. So, if you're working to end ageism and want some advice or some support, you can submit it to the hub. So, that's what it is, and I'm proud of that too.

David Lowry: 25:41

We've been talking with Ashton Applewhite, author of the book, This Chair Rocks: a Manifesto Against Ageism. Thank you for joining us on Peaceful Life Radio, and we hope that today's discussion provided you with some valuable insights about ageism and aging. Remember, finding peace in the second half of life is about embracing wisdom, grace and the knowledge that comes from understanding ourselves and the world around us. So, until next time, we hope you'll find serenity and joy in every moment of your life. This David Lowry, along with Don Drew asking you take care and stay peaceful.