Love Over Religion - Dr Thomas Oord's Journey Through Faith and Belief

Love Over Religion: Dr. Thomas Oord's Journey Through Faith and Belief

Join us on this episode of Peaceful Life Radio as we delve into an enlightening conversation with Dr. Thomas J. Oord, a theologian, scholar, and author. Dr. Oord discusses his evolution from a traditional evangelical upbringing to his current stance on open and relational theology, emphasizing love as the cornerstone of his life. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Dr. Oord explores faith, belief systems, and the complexities of spiritual development. Tune in for a thought-provoking dialogue about love, spirituality, and navigating the challenges of shifting beliefs.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:31 Dr. Oord's Personal Journey
02:35 Stages of Spiritual Development
05:32 Challenges and Changes in Faith
06:58 Navigating Differences and Acceptance
09:21 Big Questions and Rethinking God
12:37 Spirituality vs. Religion
22:39 Love and Legacy
24:26 Conclusion and Farewell

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Transcript

Tom Oord: 0:29

I'm a lover first and a member of Christianity second, as important as Christian beliefs are to me. Because in my way of thinking, love is greater than any religion. I am first and foremost committed to live a life of love. And that orients the way I think about my days and my life and my career and my family, and how I think about the current political administration and all kinds of things. I think I'd be willing to die for love as well.

David Lowry: 1:01

That was Dr. Thomas J Oord, our guest today on Peaceful Life Radio. Welcome everybody. This is David Lowry, and I'm here with my co-host Don Drew. Don, how are you today?

Don Drew: 1:12

I'm doing great, David.

David Lowry: 1:13

We're thrilled to have Dr. Thomas Oord as our guest. Dr. Oord is a theologian, scholar, and an author who has profound insights having to do with faith, shifting beliefs, and navigating challenges to his faith. Don, tell us more about Thomas, your personal friend?

Don Drew: 1:29

Well, his personal journey of confronting shifting beliefs and navigating challenges within his faith background offers some valuable lessons for anyone reflecting on their own spiritual path. Together we'll explore questions of faith, belief systems, and how to approach moments of change with openness and authenticity. Whether you're firm in your long held beliefs or wrestling with new perspectives, this conversation promises to be thought provoking and meaningful. So, let's dive in. Welcome, Tom.

Tom Oord: 1:56

Looking forward to this conversation with you two.

Don Drew: 1:58

Great. I got a question for you. Can you share about your personal journey and how your beliefs have evolved over time?

Tom Oord: 2:05

My beliefs seem to be always in process. Every time I think I've come to a place where they're all settled, something else emerges and it turns out that I don't know God after all. I don't know life after all, as if I had it all figured out.. So, I think it'd be safe to say that I'm always on a journey. I'm not certain about too much, but my faith has shifted from growing up as a committed evangelical in a traditional country church to today being a theologian who directs doctoral students in a way of thinking called open and relational theology.

David Lowry: 2:46

Tom you rocked along doing all the things that professors do, also being a pastor. You knew what you were doing in life. Then, as you begin to grow and develop, you developed some new ideas and ways of thinking and they come into conflict. And this is something we think happens to people in the second half of life. Do you see stages of spiritual development in people's lives? Has that been studied? Do we know how that works?

Tom Oord: 3:11

Yeah, there's quite a few models actually. If we're talking about how people move from different ways of thinking about truth, life, God, to new ways. Often people start with a fairly clear cut black and white, we can amass the right amount of data and facts to get the truth about reality or God or whatever, and they begin then to ask questions. When those truths, those facts, don't match up with life as it's been lived, or sometimes it's a tragedy or some unusual thing that happens that makes them question the kinds of things they originally thought were rock solid and every thinking person would of course, affirm. That then usually pushes people into a time of life that some call deconstruction or skepticism. They begin to throw out these big ideas. And for some people they stay in that mode. They stay in a mode in which they can never really construct or affirm anything with a positive effect. But I think it's healthy to move to another stage. And that third stage is not a return to having rigid belief systems, but it's a way of thinking about life that incorporates what seems to be true about the way we live our lives, the things that work in the world, but is humble. It's open to change. We hold onto our ideas loosely, even if they're incredibly important to us. Let me illustrate that with the most important thing in my life. I am first and foremost committed to live a life of love. And that orients the way I think about my days and my life and my career and my family, and how I think about the current political administration and all kinds of things. It's at the center of whom I am. And yet, I probably couldn't say I'm absolutely certain about love because I've been wrong about so many things in my life. But my confidence in love is at such a level that I'm not only willing to live for love. I think I'd be willing to die for love as well. So, this third stage is a way of having real true convictions, but still being humble about how certain we can be about their truthfulness.

Don Drew: 5:39

Let me bring up a quote here from Falling Upward, A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life by Richard Rohr. I love this line. He says, what passes for morality or spirituality in the vast majority of people's lives is the way everybody they grew up with thinks. And that kind of speaks to how we get the origin of our belief system before we begin to change. You've undergone quite a transition in your life and you talk about love. This is from your book, entitled Open and Relational Theology. You wrote, God loves everyone, every creature, and all creation, no exceptions. That position in itself is kind of what got you in some difficulty with your church and created a crisis in your life, right?

Tom Oord: 6:23

Yeah. In fact, several difficulties. Yeah. The way I understand what love requires and means pushed me to rethink my fundamental ideas about God and my fundamental ideas about gender and sexuality. In fact, this last year, I underwent a church trial that meant that I not only had my credentials as a minister removed, my membership from in the Church of the Nazarene was taken from me. And the reason for this is that I really believe that Christians, and really everybody, but especially Christians, ought to be fully affirming of LGBTQ plus people or queer people. But the denomination I was a part of understood that differently. And so, I went to trial and they pushed me out.

David Lowry: 7:15

At times. I feel like wow, I've grown apart from mainline thinking in my own religious tradition, but I love those people. I understand those people. I don't want to leave those people. And so there's a conundrum. How much do I allow? How much do I keep to myself? How do you recommend that people in the second half of life navigate these differences between their culture at large or their religious organizations and so forth, and what they've become in life?

Tom Oord: 7:43

If I had the magic formula on how to navigate that successfully and always stay in the groups you wanna stay in, my life would be a lot different because I'm not in a group that I wanted to stay in. But I have learned a few tricks over the years and one of them is that if I remain humble about I think is important, that can go a long ways toward helping me to accept people who think differently from me. Sometimes I have strong convictions and I have to remind myself that there was a time when I thought differently. I remember that Tom as a young person who had the exact opposite view on, let's say the queer issue that I brought up earlier. And I try to imagine who I once was and then give grace to people who think differently. But I think fundamentally I don't have control over whether or not groups keep me, and that's scary. It doesn't provide security. I happen to be a person who wants to be liked by other people. I think all healthy minded people wanna be liked by folks. And it hurts when I get pushed outta groups that I want to be a part of. But at the end of the day, if I'm gonna stay true to what I think is most important, and to me, the ways of love, then, I don't always have much control over whether or not groups wanna keep me.

Don Drew: 9:14

Tom, you're a theologian. You have studied your craft for many years now. This shift you've gone through, and this new understanding of love and humility, all these things have happened over time. And I think some of our listeners at this point in their life just essentially say, well, I don't believe that anymore. They're in a place of stasis where nothing is happening. What are some things that somebody might think about or do to reengage with love of understanding for God, search for spirituality, or search for meaning however that is interpreted. What do you think people might do?

Tom Oord: 9:49

For me at least, the thing that continually recharges my quest for spirituality, knowledge of God, these kinds of issues. What continually recharges is the big questions of life. And probably the biggest question, at least for those who believe in God, and I'm a person who does believe in God, the biggest question has been if this God exists and this God is perfectly loving and perfectly powerful, in fact, all powerful, as most people would say. Why doesn't this God prevent, stop the genuine evils of the world, the pointless pain, the unnecessary suffering? In fact, the polls that I've seen say that this is the number one reason people who don't believe in God, atheist or agnostics, the number one reason they say they can't believe in God. And my conversations with believers point me to say it's the number one question they have too. And for me the usual answers people gave to that kind of question were far from satisfying. Things like your uncle died because heaven needs another choir. Or you were sexually abused because God's trying to teach you a lesson. Or you had this tragedy happen because you have hidden sin. Whatever. Those things just never made good sense to me, even when I was younger. And I finally came to the place in my life when I had to decide, or I came to decide, that I had to rethink the idea that God was all powerful, God as omnipotent to use the classic word. And I've given up that view now. I don't think God can control anyone or anything in creation at any time. And I think God can't do those things because God is a God of love, and I think love is inherently uncontrolling. So, while God is still in my way of thinking, the strongest. Even the strongest, can't control others because the strongest in this case, God, is uncontrolling love. So, for me, in rethinking my ideas and revitalizing my quest for spirituality, it was looking at the big questions of life and asking, Okay, can I come to a resolution to those questions that really makes sense to me and fits the way life seems to be lived?

David Lowry: 12:22

So, that was a journey for you. How long was that journey from God being absolutely in charge of everything, to there's some things God can't do?

Tom Oord: 12:32

At least a decade. I came to that view in the nineties, but I was in a religious institution that I didn't feel completely free to share it in all the ways that I do today. So, part of it gets back to your pre previous question. I was worried the group would kick me out if I had that view. And it took me a while to get there. And then once I got there, it took another while for me to find the right language to express what I wanted to say.

David Lowry: 13:05

Tom, a very Oordinary statement people make these days is, I'm spiritual, not religious. what do you think about that?

Tom Oord: 13:12

I think most people who make that claim want to distance themselves from institutionalized religion and the idea that you have to ascribe to a particular set of doctrines. In reality, all spiritual people are religious. It's just a different kind of religion than what they're used to. And so they use that language to try to distinguish this new way of looking from what most people think of as religious. I'm fine with people saying they're spiritual but not religious. What I'm most interested in, as I've already mentioned, is how this spirituality promotes the ways of love. I'm a part of what's called the open and Relational Theological community. It's a community that thinks that God is really influencing us and being influenced by us. So, our choices actually make a difference to God. And it thinks about God moving through time with us moment by moment into a future that isn't predestined, isn't predetermined, but is actually, coming to fruition by the choices that we and others in God make moment by moment. And what's compelling about that vision of God is that it's not restricted just to people who are Christians. There are Muslims and Hindus and Mormons and Jews, folks of various religious traditions who like that general shape of God. And the strange thing is, David, is that there are some of my fellow Christians who have a radically different view of God than some of my Muslim friends who are open and relational theists. And so this way of thinking about God, the thing that I think is most important as it points toward love, is something that can transcend the typical boundaries that people raise up when they talk about religion.

David Lowry: 15:09

As we move into senior years, seniors have a reputation for being rather blunt. Putting it out there, not caring about what anybody thinks or how they take them or something like that. But one of the beautiful things about being a senior is that we use wisdom in the way that we express ourselves. How do we share matters of faith and be authentic and upfront about who we are without apology, without being such a turnoff to so many people? Any suggestions on that?

Tom Oord: 15:38

I now have grandkids and they're still fairly young. But I've been thinking about the ideas they have and I'm sure there going to move into a time in their teens where they're gonna think differently than me and their parents. And as a grandparent, I love my grandkids so much. I want what's best for them. And I know that wisdom says I need to let them find their way and not foist or impose all of my ideas on them. They're not going to agree with me in everything. And my care for them, my relationship with them, is far more important to me than making sure they line up having the right beliefs about certain things. So, I privilege relationship over correct beliefs. I privilege love and affection over memorizing the rules and I think my experience, in the limited life I've had, is that is wiser. I have a child who doesn't believe in God anymore, who doesn't attend church and that sort of thing. And I've tried to be very open and have genuine heartfelt dialogues in ways that are, at least my attempt is to not be threatening. And one of the questions she asked me is, can you accept me for who I am? And my answer to her is that I can accept you the way you are because I have a particular view of God who accepts me the way I am. That doesn't mean that God agrees with all my views and is always pleased with what I do. Just like I might not agree with all the views of my daughter or am happy with all the choices she makes, but I am committed to be a loving presence in her life to the degree that she would like me to be. And that strategy has been helpful for our relationship. I would say we have a good relationship. And it's been helpful in terms of me wrestling with my own issues through life. For me, I still believe in God and a God of love. And that gives me a kind of assurance that the depth of divine love and that I am loved gives me an assurance that if I have the wrong ideas or make bad choices, I don't leave that loving presence of God. God is always there forgiving and accepting and calling me.

David Lowry: 18:19

Back in the day I was a member of a 12 step group for about five years. And there was a saying in this group, I fired that God. We had these ideas about God and we said, I'm firing that God. Alright Tom, what kind of God have you fired over the years?

Tom Oord: 18:39

I have fired the God who's in control or even could control anyone or anything. That's a big God who's dead to me now. I fired the God who only likes the elect or the chosen and sends other people to hell. That God's dead to me. I've fired the God who has fore known everything standing outside of time and somehow knows the future. I think God learns moment by moment like we do. So, that old God is dead to me. I've fired the God who has no needs and no relation. He's isolated like an iceberg, unaffected by anything. That God is dead to me now. I've fired the God who thinks there's only two kinds of genders and only one proper sexual orientation. Well, I could go for quite a while here, David.

David Lowry: 19:33

You have fired a lot of Gods in your time and strangely I fired a lot of those gods too.

Tom Oord: 19:40

I remember thinking when I was younger that my tribe was christianity, team Jesus. I was on team, Jesus and all the other teams were out there. They were the wrong team and we were in competition to them. And it just so happened that being on team Jesus, I was supposed to be a loving person'cause that was one of the team rules. But ultimately, being on the right team mattered more than loving. And that's changed in my life. Today, I'm a lover first and a member of Christianity second, as important as Christian beliefs are to me. Because in my way of thinking, love is greater than any religion. And it's greater than affiliation or allegiance to any particular team. And this means that I sometimes have to stand as a prophet against the people whom I am most closely identified. And that's uncomfortable. I sometimes question myself, like maybe I'm wrong about this. But I think if love requires us to promote the flourishing of others, all others, even enemies, then, we have to sometimes be open to cutting ties with the people who have been so important to us in the past.

Don Drew: 21:02

Tom, you've spent the last 60 years a part of a church that has now said that it no longer wants you to be a part of that, right? That just happened last year. So, here's the big question. What now?

Tom Oord: 21:13

Well, I made a decision before I went to the trial that I wasn't gonna quickly move to another denomination. So, I've had lots of people from various traditions say, Hey, you'd fit really well here. We'd love to have you, and that's very kind of them. But I wasn't going through the trial because I wanted to burn my bridges with the Church to Nazarene and go somewhere else and say, tough luck for you guys. That wasn't my purpose. And I don't want to put all of the, blame's not the right word. I don't wanna say that the church was aggressively going after me and I was just standing by passively saying, what have I done? Because I was being very bold and public about my support for queer issues, about my views about a loving God. And I had come to a place in my life where I felt like if I had to choose between remaining in this particular group, this church and denomination, or saying what I thought needed to be said about love for queer people. I was gonna choose queer people over the church. And if that meant me getting pushed out, well that would be painful but it's sort of this, here I stand, I can do no other kind of a thing. Strangely enough, I still attend the Church of the Nazarene. I just can't be a member there. So, I haven't even technically left. But I still attend a little church that's supportive and I have friends. And I've got 60 years of friendships, you just don't walk away from those, especially when so many of those friends supported and encouraged and agreed with my stand. So, I'm in a weird place, Don. I'm kind of trying to figure what my identity is and it's awkward cause I don't know quite how I fit.

David Lowry: 23:01

You have, from my viewpoint, made it very clear what your identity is. It's love first. You are love first. And how you are going to relationally hang out with people that's still to be decided, but it's always gonna be based in love first. And yeah. I see you as having made a very clear decision there.

Tom Oord: 23:23

Oh, definitely that. Yeah. Yeah,

Don Drew: 23:25

Tom, in all these years you've been dedicated to theology, to the concepts of love, to your students and to so many other things. What about the legacy you want to leave?

Tom Oord: 23:36

People identify me in a number of ways. Many people think I'm a theologian. I've been a professor to lots of people. Of course, I'm a father and a husband. I'm an artist. I do a lot of photography. Some people know me as a speaker. I have all these hats that I wear. And I was thinking the other day that when I die, I think what I would most like put on my tombstone or whatever form I'm remembered not, Tom was a, an important theologian, or Tom was an artist or whatever. All those are important. I want something like he tried to live a life of love. That, to me, sums up my primary aim and purpose in life. And it's the thing that I want to hand on to those who come after me. Because for me, the focus of love is central not only to my spirituality, but is central to what I think life should be all about. I think whoever said love is the answer actually had that right. And, as I come to my later stages of life, that's what I care about most.

David Lowry: 24:52

We've been speaking with Dr. Thomas Oord, who is many things to many people. He's an author of more than 30 books, a pastor, a theologian, he studies relational theology. You can follow him on Substack. Tom, tell us some of the ways that we can follow you and learn more about the work you do.

Tom Oord: 25:09

Yeah, thanks. I have a personal website that's my full name, Thomas J Oord. My last name is spelled with two o's, O O R D, and so you can find a lot of information there. If you're interested in open and relational theology, I direct the Center for Open and Relational Theology. And that website is C, the number four, O R T dot com. But you can find me other social media platforms.

David Lowry: 25:34

Tom, we're so glad you've been on our program today. Thank you for agreeing to be with us. I hope that we can get with you again sometime.

Tom Oord: 25:41

Thanks for the invitation.

David Lowry: 25:42

Here on Peaceful Life Radio, we want to help you navigate the second half of life with grace, growth, self-awareness and purpose, and an opportunity to live with intention.

Don Drew: 25:53

If you've enjoyed today's episode, we'd love you to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with the others who might benefit from our discussions. And as always, we're here to inspire you to make this journey your very best. Until next time, take care and stay peaceful.