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Peaceful Life Radio
Professor Karlos Hill on Healing History
Professor Karlos Hill on Healing History
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, host David Lowry and Don Drew interview Dr. Karlos Hill, Regents Professor at the University of Oklahoma, about his work as a Black studies historian. Dr. Hill discusses the importance of understanding and healing from the Black past, particularly focusing on the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre. He elaborates on myths, suppressed narratives, and the profound impact of the massacre on the Black community. Dr. Hill emphasizes the critical need for racial dialogue and transformational education to foster compassion, knowledge, and healing. During the discussion, he also shares insights on his books and community initiatives dedicated to racial justice.
00:00 Introduction to the Black Past
00:43 Meet Professor Karlos Hill
01:01 Dr. Hill's Work and Mission
03:22 The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre
13:56 Understanding Difficult Histories
17:21 Healing Through Dialogue
24:45 Current and Future Projects
28:10 Final Thoughts and Farewell
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I would say that my greatest growth as a Black studies historian is to not only realize that I have a relationship, but to own my relationship to the Black past. And I would say to everyone listening, we all, every one of us, White, Black, Brown, have a relationship to the Black past. The only question is whether we care about that relationship or not. If there's no healing, there's no future. And so healing is essential to progress. Without it, we're doomed to be stuck in these antagonisms that don't have to be.
David Lowry:That was Professor Karlos Hill on today's Peaceful Life Radio. Welcome. I'm David Lowry. With me today is our good friend Don Drew. Don, how are you?
Don Drew:Hello, David. I'm really excited about today's program.
David Lowry:I want you to introduce our very special guest, Professor Karlos Hill.
Don Drew:I'm looking forward to it. Dr. Hill is the Regents Professor of the Clara Luper, department of African and African American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. Dr. Hill is the author of three books Beyond the Rope: The Impact of Lynching on Black Culture and Memory. The Murder of Emmett Till: A Graphic History, and his latest work the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre: A Photographic History. Dr. Hill founded the Tulsa Race Massacre Oklahoma Teachers Institute to support teaching the history of the race massacre to thousands of middle school and high school students. He also serves on the boards of the Freedom Center Planning Committee, the Clara Luper Legacy Committee, and the Board of Scholars for Facing History and Ourselves, and is actively engaged in other community initiatives working towards racial justice. Dr. Hill, welcome to Peaceful Life Radio.
Karlos Hill:Thank you for having me.
Don Drew:Let's start with your books. Dr. Hill, your books highlight tragedies and murders, perpetrated by racial hatred. Why do you think telling these stories are important and what do you hope to accomplish?
Karlos Hill:I usually begin talks that I have explaining to people why I bear witness to the histories of lynching and racial violence. I can tell you in a phrase, Healing history, healing history, healing history. I truly believe we can heal from our painful, traumatic past. I teach students not just to know, I teach students to care about these histories because I believe knowledge is a pathway to caring. Right? Knowledge is a pathway to caring and being compassionate towards histories and not just the histories, that the histories have impacted, knowledge is a pathway to caring. And if we can position people to authentically know and care about these histories, I think at that intersection of compassion, and knowledge is transformation. And so my mission and purpose is always to teach students to care about these histories of lynching and racial violence that I write about.
Don Drew:Your statement,"knowledge being a pathway to caring," is such a beautiful sentiment has a lot to do with what we want to accomplish today. But your primary expertise is in the Tulsa Race Massacre. We don't have a long program, but I do think that it would be good for our listeners to hear a little about what happened on May 31st and June 1st, 1921.
Karlos Hill:So I'm a Black studies historian of lynching and racial violence. But the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre is what I'm most known for because of the community work and the commission's work to shift the nation's understanding of what happened from a riot to a massacre. That was profound, and I was blessed to be a part of it. What we need to understand about the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, what happened on May 31st, June 1st, 1921 is that it was the deadliest attack on an American community, right, in this country's history. Some would call what happened in Tulsa, the largest disturbance after the Civil War, the deadliest attack on a Black community in American history, or an American community. That's the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre. What does that really mean? That means between 16 and 18 hours, a community estimated about 11,000 Black people, Black souls, with a 40 block area was destroyed in a matter of hours, I want to say 14 to 16 hours. The only buildings left standing, or intact, were Booker T Washington School. But other than Booker T Washington, every significant building in that community, homes, schools, hospitals, all manner of businesses destroyed by a violent mob numbering in the thousands. So when we talk about the race massacre, we have to put it into proper perspective. It's not just an attack on a Black community. It's not just the destruction of businesses and homes. It's the deadliest attack on a Black community., An American community in our nation's history. And it's not only the deadliest, I would say it's one of our most defining histories. So when we talk about Greenwood, when we talk about Black Wall Street, when we talk about the Tulsa Race Massacre, it carries a heaviness because it is such an important history.
David Lowry:Dr. Hill, I'm ashamed to say, but it is the truth, I've lived in Oklahoma since 2005. I did not even know about this until about five years ago. Never heard a word about this, but of course, nothing about lynchings either. There's so much history I've never heard about. But a question I have is, what are some of the myths and discoveries about this massacre that challenges our previous understandings of all of this?
Karlos Hill:I think I suggested it earlier. When the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre was mentioned, it was often mentioned as a riot, as a conflict, or a racial conflict between Blacks and Whites that spilled over into the Black community and resulted in that community being destroyed. But essentially when it's understood as a race riot, it's a history that centers Black people as the perpetrators, Black people, as the reason for why it occurred. And when it was referenced, it was always referenced as a riot. But the deeper history of the massacre was a history of suppression. Following June 1st. There was never a systematic investigation of the causes. Who was to blame? Why did this quote unquote riot turn into destruction of the Black community? Those questions, were never answered, were never even explored, in part because of the racism and the White supremacy of the era. It simply was never going to be an option for the White men who were responsible for the destruction, to be held culpable, or accountable for that destruction. That ran counter to the time, right? I studied the lynching era. And the lynching era is all about the ways in which White people, could pretty much treat Black people with impunity, and without the risk of any kind of, punishment or ramifications for their behavior. And that was the same with Greenwood. And so the Whites who, beginning at 5:00 AM on June 1st, and numbering in the thousands again, who entered Greenwood simultaneously, and began to systematically destroy homes, businesses, and kill innocent people, those individuals did that with the knowledge they would never be held responsible. And I was able, as a historian, document what happened a hundred years ago, 103 years ago now, because the members of the mob who participated in the violence took pictures of the destruction, knowing full well that it would never be held responsible for that violence, even when they were pictured in the photographs. So for so many reasons, I understand the 19 21 Tulsa Race Massacre as a part of lynching culture, the culture of lynching. And in fact, an allegation of sexual assault, is what precipitated the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre and the calls to lynch Dick Roland, the man who was supposed to have sexually assaulted a White woman in Tulsa, Sarah Page. It was those allegations that brought White men downtown, calling for the lynching of Dick Roland, but ultimately it was the Black men who came downtown to defend Dick Roland who became ensnared with White members of the mob and led to the melee that led to the eruption of violence. So the start of that violence was this allegation of sexual assault, something that is synonymous with lynching and lynching culture. That is what precipitated the 1921 Race massacre and led to it becoming a massacre, an assault on the Black community. That angle, that part of the history has been the most suppressed. And I have argued it's been the most suppressed because that's the story that survivors and victims told about what happened.
Don Drew:Dr. Hill, just for our listeners, a little additional background. When you refer to Greenwood, that is the Black district where the massacre took place often referred to as Black Wall Street, indicating that area was a very, financially successful venture for the Black community.
David Lowry:Do you think that played into this massacre mentality as well?
Karlos Hill:Greenwood, is a part of Tulsa, at 1921, a city of a hundred thousand, Greenwood, about 11,000 residents in that neighborhood, that 40 block area. What I can say from really carefully studying the photos, the individuals who snapped the pictures of the destruction who were likely a part of the violence, when they left annotations on the photographs, some of which became postcards that they sent through the mail of the destruction and the loss of life, I noticed, and noted that there were notations that referenced Greenwood or Greenwood Black Wall Street. Instead of referring to it in that way, it was referred on those photographs as Dark Town. Not only as Dark Town but Africa Town. And if you know anything about the early 20th century, those were racial epithets. Those were meant to disparage Greenwood not honor it, not give it respect, its due. Those photographs helped me to understand the deep resentment there was to the affluence of Greenwood. We have to remember in 1921, Greenwood was a symbol of what was economically possible in Black America. Black America at this time, particularly in the South, by and large, Black people are landless sharecroppers. All that to say Greenwood was a symbol of what was possible in an urban context. Part of the reason why it was known as Black Wall Street wasn't because there were banks or financial institutions of note, it was because, Greenwood was the home of some of the most respected Black businesses in the country, like the Dreamland Theater owned by the Williams family, John and Lula Williams, who migrated to Tulsa in the early 19 hundreds. Black entrepreneurs, who made the Dream land into a national theater with national cachet. There was a Stratford hotel known as one of the finest Black hotels in the country. Because of the reputation of those businesses and the support from the community, there were at least six millionaires in Greenwood by 1921. There were other Black communities, and there were other Black wall streets. I'm actually writing a book right now on the Black Wall Streets of America. There's a Black Wall Street in Richmond, Virginia, in Durham, North Carolina, Atlanta, Chicago. We can name a few. So there were other communities where Black people were prosperous, but in the Jim Crow South, Greenwood was a symbol and Booker T Washington, in visiting Oklahoma, labeled Greenwood the Negro Wall Street of America because the promise it represented. And the resentment of White Tulsan's was, how could this community gather up so much wealth, so much resources? It was affront to the White supremacy of that day, and the photographs helped to reveal it.
David Lowry:This is sometimes called difficult history. Do you find special challenges as you tell these stories and make your students aware of what's happened in our past?
Karlos Hill:These histories are difficult because we're afraid to confront them. We're afraid to talk about them. We don't quite know how to talk about them with compassion and sensitivity. And when that is the case it creates a reticence to want to engage to want to talk about these histories. The way in which I try to make students and audiences comfortable in talking about these difficult pasts that are really emotionally charged, politically charged, is to say to them that we can heal. Healing is possible for our most traumatic histories, right? And the pathway to that is understanding those histories authentically. Understanding those histories of lynching and racial violence, racial massacres, the hard history of slavery, the hard history of this country. How do you authentically understand those histories? I believe having studied and served in the capacity that I have, the 1921 Race Massacre, the best way to position people to authentically understand the difficult past is to center victims and survivors in the telling of those histories. That positions contemporary audiences to understand where the grievances are, where the pain and suffering is, where the debates about restitution are, and what those communities are owed or deserve today. When we center those communities, we understand those histories better and why they are difficult pasts today. When we suppress the authentic histories of lynching and racial violence, we remove from it those individuals, those communities, as if they didn't exist, as if they weren't crucial to it. And I would argue that in the moment that we have right now where we see our histories, the desire to discuss the difficult histories of slavery and the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, we are doing to the next generation what was done to your generation. We're suppressing those histories and making it possible that a hundred years from now there will be people who say, Wow, I never learned about The 1921 Race Massacre. I didn't hear about that until I was into my forties or fifties. That is what our politic is positioning the next generations to say if we don't speak up, because that's what happened in the 1920s and thirties as it relates to the race massacre. So we're at a real inflection point in terms of these histories and whether or not we will continue to be honest about them.
Don Drew:Despite your work in this dark history that you're talking about, the murder of Emett Till, the lynchings, the massacre, despite all that, I find you to be positive in your approach. And one of the things I believe you advocate is racial dialogue. How can we as people in a second half of life, reengage, if you will, in history and open dialogue in positive and effective ways?
Karlos Hill:I would say that my greatest growth as a Black studies historian is to not only realize that I have a relationship, but to own my relationship to the Black past. And I would say to everyone listening, we all, every one of us, White, Black, Brown, have a relationship to the Black past. The only question is whether we care about that relationship or not. I truly believe everyone can have a healing relationship with the Black past, centered on a deep compassion for not just the history, but the people connected to that history. I think it's available to all of us. And it really takes an individual who wants to grow in this part of their life, to really recognize that they have a relationship with that past. And that if they can figure out why they care, that is where the transformation happens. Individuals, communities realizing, coming to realize, not individually, but together, why they care about these histories and how these histories show up today, I think you can't grow and transform in your head. You have to dialogue, engage with people around these histories, and in the process of doing that, we grow, we transform. But I believe it starts with knowing and believing that we can have a relationship with the Black past. And there's a process by which one does this. It's not just willy-nilly now. Healing history is a methodology, but I'm saying people have to believe that they can have a relationship and they have to understand that really truly caring about that relationship is what will help them to grow in it.
David Lowry:I know there's so much more that needs to be done and certainly something I need to know more about. But do you have any other ideas or suggestions that we could start to do to bring about healing and taking our part in Black history as well? I love how you include all of us in that.
Karlos Hill:These processes are difficult. They're hard, they're not linear. What I'm really trying to suggest is realizing a personal relationship with the Black past is something really amorphous to people. Oftentimes when we talk about relationships to the past, individuals think about direct relationships, ancestral relationships, familial relationships, direct ties, and I'm suggesting that is a part of it. But there's something bigger, right? And we can have an effective relationship to the Black past, an understanding about the Black past in terms of why we care about it. Dialoguing with ourselves and in community around histories like the race massacre, help to reveal the why we care as individuals and communities. And where we care is where we can engage and where we can get active and where we can do things together to confront the ways in which the history shows up today. In Tulsa, how does the race massacre show up today? Where are the dialogues happening about how the history shows up today that we need to confront and deal with? It's around the history of restitution and repair. It's around the history and the search for mass graves. And it's also around whether or not the last two survivors of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre will receive restitution. I've mentioned there are two living survivors. Not only are there two living survivors who were alive in 1921 who experienced the violence, Greenwood was a survivor. It survived the attack. And the community deserves repair. These are large issues for people in the community to care about, have compassion for, and to learn about. These things cannot be done in isolation. One cannot grow just by reading or by knowing. One has to grow by knowing and caring. And by caring, get involved and get activated. That's where transformation is. It's no different for me then for you. I could not talk the way that I talk about the race massacre, just because I'm a historian listening and racial violence. I talk the way I talk about it because I've been deeply engaged in these struggles and been transformed by them. If people truly are after transformation and growth, that is the path. You can't do it from the sidelines. You can't do it by reading about it in isolation. Growth in terms of having a healing relationship with these paths is rooted in dialogue, discussion, understanding, and ultimately how we can come together to do something about how these history show up. I would be remiss if I didn't mention, the most important thing that I'm working on right now is really figuring out how I can develop and perfect a healing history curriculum for students and adults. I really want to perfect how we take people who perhaps may not have a lot of knowledge about the Black past. Help them to understand that they have a relationship to it. And to understand that compassion is a key component to an effective relationship with the Black past. And then dialoguing with them about their personal relationship, getting into their identity'cause you can't talk about one's relationships to history without talking about one's identity. All those things I'm trying to perfect in my classroom so that I'm assured when students take my class, I've positioned them to care. I've positioned them to not just to know about the history, but to care about the history and the people today connected to the communities connected to those histories. That is my role as a Black studies historian who not just teaches about the Black past, I bear witness to the Black past, and because of that, I have to position others to bear witness too. And so I really care about my healing history, pedagogy, methodology, and really, transforming students in the process.
Don Drew:Dr Hill, your Passion is evident here. I just wanna let you know how much we appreciate you. You have j ust recently written the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, a Photographic history, it's out there as well as your other books. What are you planning on working on now? You mentioned a book project. What else are you working on?
Karlos Hill:Thank you for that question. In 2023, I had the opportunity to edit Clara Luper's. Behold the Wall Clara Luper for the audience is often referred to as the mother of the Oklahoma Civil Rights Movement. For the last seven years or so, I have been a member of the Clara Luper Legacy Committee, a committee that is tasked with honoring Clara Luper's Life and Legacy. That's a project that stemmed from my work on the Legacy Committee. I would really encourage the audience to take a look at Behold the Walls. It is a memoir of the Oklahoma City civil Rights Movement. The good news of that book is that a second edition, actually a soft copy, will be available beginning in the fall of 2025. So the book will be republished'cause of the success of the first. The two books that I'm working on right now have to do with Greenwood and Clara Luper. So the Clara Luper book will be a graphic history of the Katz drug store sit-in. I'm working with a fabulous graphic artist to render it. I'm really behind. I promised Marilyn Luper, the daughter of Clara Luper about two years ago that I would be working feverishly on this book and get it out in a timely fashion. That has not happened. The reason why she's waiting for this with bated breath is I promised that she would be the narrator of the graphic history. It would be told in her voice and her aesthetic. The name of that book will be titled Freedoms Classroom because Clara Luper turned her classroom into a freedoms classroom were taught a generation of students how to be democratic citizens, how to fight for democracy how to fight for justice. And we're gonna talk how she lived at the intersection of education and activism. She led a movement from there. King led a movement from the pulpit. Malcolm X led a movement from, we can say from a pulpit. You had Asa Randolph as a labor activist. You had James Baldwin as an intellectual. Clara Lupa was a teacher who mobilized students as young as seven to be activists. And so Clara Luper is a hero of mine. I've learned to revere her as a heroine because of my service on the Legacy committee and seeing how 65 years later her students are as passionate about her, in her absence as she was when she was living. I'm writing a book with Carla Slocum, a great anthropologist historian of Oklahoma, but also of the African diaspora. She's at University of North Carolina, Capitol Hill. I'm working with her on this book on the Long Black Wall Street Movement. There were multiple Black Wall Streets.
Don Drew:Some of us can't go back to school but we can continue to grow, to know and then care as a byproduct of that, and hopefully find positive ways to bring greater racial peace and harmony to those around us.
Karlos Hill:I've been talking about healing, healing, healing, healing, healing. And I just wanna say very quickly, the reason why I center healing is because I believe if there's no healing, there's no future. And so healing is essential to progress. Without it, we're doomed to be stuck in these antagonisms that don't have to be. So healing for me is so crucial, and that's why I talk about healing history versus difficult histories.
David Lowry:You've been listening to Dr. Carlos Hill, Professor of African and African American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. He's the author of three books. Professor, thank you for everything you've said today and for challenging us to understand our relationship to Black History and Healing Dialogue. Thank you for being our guest today on Peaceful Life Radio.
Karlos Hill:Thank you for having me..
